I just walked out to the sanctuary and saw how Garry Barton had decorated it with a patriotic theme to go with the 4th of July. It looks great!
But I immediately thought of all the people in our society who are a bit negative about America. They would never wave an American flag, never sport a red, white and blue T-shirt, and certainly not want a sanctuary to be decked with the stars and stripes.
It is popular to be embarrassed about this country. Comedians rip the president. Historians re-write history. Many teachers teach that we should be ashamed of our role in history.
I’ve often been asked what I think about the good ole US of A. So let me briefly tell you. I’m thankful for this country. Yes. Its history is laced with episodes that are not worthy of praise. It has always had some leaders in high positions who are scoundrels. American politicians have sometimes made unwise decisions regarding international policies. Our current economic position is deplorable. I could lengthen this list considerably.
But all of these things could be said of other countries as well.
I am thankful for this country because it began with a lofty, ideal view of what a society could be. And although we have only glimpsed that idealism momentarily, it remains a worthy goal. I love this country because it allows me to still worship the God revealed in the Christian Bible with freedom of conscience.
I am thankful for this country because it is my home, and yes, I am proud to be an American.
Insight for the Journey 
Experiencing doubt in our walk with Him is a part of becoming closer to him. Experiencing doubt in our Country can also be seen as a part of becoming more patriotic.
A true understanding of our history, our constitution and, yes, our faith, requires more than throwing up some nice decorations. Nothing in the creation of America really effectively required Americans to believe in God, and nothing in our faith in Christ requires believers to be patriotic. I find it curious that someone would be considered unpatriotic if they aren’t Christian in America where the separation of Church and state is written into the constitution. On the other hand, in Britain the Queen is the head of the church and much of Britain are atheists. Xenophobia is not all that uncommon in churches, sadly, although thankfully Grace has done a great job of minimizing any sense of contempt for those who don’t conform.
“This country began with a lofty ideal view of what society could be”. Actually, no it didn’t. Most of the founders had only their local constituents’ needs in mind, and only signed on to form a union in order to better serve those needs. For the most part they were practical men, not idealists. Some have written great apparitional ideas, but foremost in their minds and hearts were to gain security and prosperity for the people who voted them into office. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin – all were men of great ambivalence towards lofty ideals without practical action. Even today that is what we as a country stand for: out of many, one. But never, ever from one single lofty ideal will many follow.
Since moving here I have visited many churches. During the Fourth of July holiday at LCC they seem to have a custom of playing a video in the 5-10 minutes prior to service that blares patriotic songs, and displays images of flags, soldiers, the Twin Towers, and crosses. I’ve often been frustrated that my 5-10 minutes of silent time to prepare for worship was interrupted by the video. I found it at the very least unnecessary. As for Grace, we are usually more reasonable and balanced in our displays. For me, personally, the decorations were a bit too much, but I’ve grown accustomed to this kind of “lapel pin” display since moving to this area. However, I have to ask, why two weeks of decorations? The week after July 4th, the red, white and blue still overwhelmed the stage. Why? Did you not have the manpower to change the decor? I remember this past Easter. The next week, all the decorations were gone. I know we have a lot of run-up to Christmas, and so from Thanksgiving time to the New Year the holiday decorations are abundant. But if I’m not mistaken, by the second week in January they are all packed back into their boxes.
In reading your post I wonder why do you imply that “people who will not wave an American flag, sport a red, white and blue T-shirt, and certainly not want a sanctuary to be decked out with the stars and stripes” are negative about America? Why do you criticize those who are not likeminded? Do you then mean to argue that if a person were to dress in red, white and blue and appreciate the decorations they must be positive about America? What is important is not that people are positive or negative “about America”, but what is important is what in America people are positive or negative about. We can easily be “positive” about our current administration in D.C., supporting America by trusting our leaders and waving our flags and wearing our T-shirts. But what are we saying as a church when we decorate our walls like this? That we support America? That we love its history? I think it is popular to question others patriotism for political and self-serving gain. Sadly, while I don’t’ believe you subscribe to this behavior, I think your comments feed into this notion. I respectfully disagree.
While there is much to be proud of in America, it is also reasonable to expect that many will feel embarrassed about some of the actions and inactions of this country. This president, as many before and after, has made many comments and decision that deserve to be mocked by comedians. Historians re-write history many times because the original version was tainted and full of misinformation. Many teachers profess that they are so grateful that they live in a county where they are allowed to teach that there are some things we should be ashamed of in our role in history. Much of the red, white and blue rhetoric I see and hear is a colorful arrangement of black-and-white/us-or-them thinking. We are all Americans, and as we all have the constitutional right to express our faith in God, or lack of faith, we also all have the right to express our patriotism, or lack thereof, freely and without ridicule or persecution. I don’t like the decorations, but I don’t judge you for liking them.
The only Word that is unquestionable is His Word. Our County is under God, as are all countries, and all men and women. Experiencing doubt in our walk with Him is a part of becoming closer to him. Why can it not be the same, that experiencing doubt in our Country can also be seen as a part of becoming more patriotic?
Kb, that is a great, great post. I was wondering if I should comment, but I now feel like I can. Thanks so much for your input. I hope you will comment on other posts here. The lofty ideal thing bothered me and I thouhgt it woudl be commented on earlier, but it seems that this blog isn’t commented on too much. I hope that changes. Anyway, to love a country just because over 200 years ago its founders had some lofty ideals is not a very strong arguement to me. also, many countries allow their people to worship the God of their choice, America was not the first. American is a nation of people from everywhere else, and so we have borrowed and learned from other countries. That does not make our countyr better than many others. Soem would say that listening to michael savage or rush on WGY is a healthy way to understand what a real patriot is. They both use the same words, showing how patriotic they aand others are, and that america is based on lofty ideals. But anyone can say that. One thing I like about Savage is that he seesm to question the status quoe, and he seems to understand that the government and the country does need a little shaking up from time to time. But what I don’t like about these kinds of simple statements about being thankful for their country is that they condem others who think differently from them. They don’t believe that others could have a reason to NOT be thankful. Like people who don’t have healthcare, or who cant spend time with their family because they have to work two or three jobs. i know people like thhese, and they don’t blame their country for their troubles, but they also don’t feel a reason to be thankful jsut because it’s teh patriotic thing to do! The original post says at the end that he is thakful for this country and proud to be an american. OK, so decorate your own house as you like, make your own children wear teh stars adn stripes on their shirts, but dont’ force feed it to others! anyway, thaqnks for the great post. Good luck, and God Bless.
Jon
I can’t help but think God’s timing in all this is perfect, as always. My husband and I just watched the film , “Kite Runner”. Throughout the film and afterwards my husband and I thanked God for this country and how good we have it. No, it is not perfect, but other than the lack of appreciation and abundance of materialism and greed by some who feel they deserve it all, we have it good in the US. I personally do not take it for granted and don’t mind being reminded every year that I should be grateful by decorations displayed in the sanctuary. If you aren’t happy here and don’t appreciate what we have, try living in Afghanistan where you may have to sell your child to make money or to save your wives life. Those who live in the US that are working three jobs should thank the Lord that they are able to work and have a job. “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him” James 1:12.
Pastor Rex, Thank you for your thoughts about America. I agree our flag is a symbol of hope for those who are fleeing the oppression of tyrannical governments. Just as the cross is a symbol of freedom from the cruel bondage we were held in by the enemy of our souls Satan. The blood that was shed by our Savior Jesus Christ is precious to those who have been set free by it, so the flag represents the blood that has been shed by our young men and women who have sacrificed to keep us free in America where a comedian can even joke about our faults without being beheaded. I think we are all feeling that change is coming with this next election, I hope it is the change that those who are discontented can live with. I did not choose to be born in America, but I do choose to remain here. It is still one of the few countries in the world where we can freely share our faith in Christ without being persecuted for it. So lets wave our flag and be proud to be an American. 2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”
I am saddened. I spent a great deal of time (with my husband) writing a comment on this blog last night. It was posted and I could see it before we went to sleep. Now this morning it is absent. I did not realize this blog was moderated for content. Our comment did not use any profanity or inappropriate language. I do not understand why it would be removed. It saddens me that we seem to be censored. I hope this is not so, and you will repost my comment, as I did not save a copy of my draft.
Emily, please know that what happened to you is not a reflection on Grace church, or on Rex Keener. It is a fine church, and Rex is a good man. We must assume that this blog, like many that are focused on a church leader, are not monitored by the church leader themselves. Instead, usually an administrative person plays both judge and jury and, yes, will from time to time censor comments. Is it right? No. Is it sad? Sure it is. Is it personal? It sure can feel that way.
I’m not a woman, but I do know some friends who like this site: http://urbanchristianz.blogspot.com/
It seems very well written, and has a tag line that states “A safe place to share and express your thoughts about spirituality and life.” Sounds like a good place to be.
Hope to see you at Grace!
Jon: Thank you for the reference to Sonya’s blog. I had seen it before. Not sure if it’s my style, but I’ll give it another chance. I also wondered about the moderation of this blog. Isn’t a blog created to foster better community, and to encourage dialog? I guess I’m just a bit angry still. I’ll still stick with this blog, but probably do more trolling than contributing. Anyway, thank you.
What was your post about? Maybe you and your husband can rethink what you had written, and tyr to put it down in print again. Its worth a try, i think. Whats trolling? I’m still kinda new at bloggin so please forgive me. I woudl guess it means hanging around and reading but not participatting?
Also, if anyone know s about rss feeds let me know. I’m not sure how to use them Thanks.
Thanks, Jon.
Emily and I had been responding to the post about the movie Kite Runner. It bothered us that a film regarding the rape of a little boy would be used to indicate why someone was thankful for this country. After thinking about it we are even more saddened that our post may have been censored but the post about the movie Kite Runner still stands. It makes us wonder if this is indicative of what Grace thinks. We enjoy Grace and are considering membership, and Rex has a sincerity that comes across as genuine. So we won’t make this an issue. It’s not essential, of course, to our decision making process.
There are many imperfections to this country, and pointing them out is not unpatriotic. The post from KB said it best for us: “Experiencing doubt in our walk with Him is a part of becoming closer to him. Why can it not be the same, that experiencing doubt in our Country can also be seen as a part of becoming more patriotic?”
We also don’t mind being reminded once a year by celebrating and decorating. But to be told that “If you aren’t happy here and don’t appreciate what we have, try living in Afghanistan where you may have to sell your child to make money or to save your wives life.” is unhelpful at the least. It is akin to the bumper sticker – America: love it or leave it. We are not grateful that we don’t live in Afghanistan, or Darfur, or Somalia, or Cape Town, or Uganda, or Cambodia, or Bangladesh. Those places have great people, great beauty, and Knowing how terrible it is for many people there does not make me grateful for this country. What we are grateful for is that we live in a country with such resources, all given from our Father, and we have the opportunity to be good stewards with those resources and possibly help some of those people in these places of pain and despair. What we are conflicted about is when we decorate a sanctuary to remind ourselves of how good we have it in this country, and then criticize others who have legitimate, necessary and good-faith criticisms of the American culture, foreign policy, actions both domestically and internationally and government representatives. Even to the point of labeling them as unpatriotic, and even “anti-American.” Just because we are not comfortable with the decorations does not mean that we are not “happy here and don’t appreciate what we have”.
In regards to SP’s writing “Those who live in the US that are working three jobs should thank the Lord that they are able to work and have a job.” What SP has written is true in spirit – we all need to be grateful for what we have. What we don’t agree with is that while we are working three jobs, without health insurance, and with our daughter HIV positive, that we should be silent about how things in America are not working for everyone.
“I tell you the truth, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
Matthew 25:40
This is very confusing. I just scrolled through the posts and now I see my original post, but it is labeled as “Awaiting Moderation”. I’m wondering if it will be posted after all!
No, now it’s gone again. How confusing!
Thought I would try again.
Well, I’ve read through these posts several times now, and even asked my husband to read them – and I’ve never done that before (we both read bits and pieces out loud – never done that either), and so since we just returned from visiting Grace again today I was wondering how other people at Grace would feel about this last post by SP.
In particular, referencing the movie Kite Runner and claiming to understand the struggles of the people of Afghanistan confuses me. Is this the nature now of analysis in this country, that we watch a movie of a little boy who is raped and all we can think is, “Wow, glad I don’t live there!? Anyone who doesn’t celebrate our good ole US of A should really watch this movie so they can appreciate the joy of persevering while they work three jobs, (two at Wal-Mart, different stores), one at Stewarts. They should watch this movie so they can be thankful for America while they sit in the emergency room at Ellis Hospital and wait 5 hours because working three jobs still doesn’t provide them with health insurance for their 28 year old daughter who is HIV positive. Oh, and yes, they should watch this movie, and become enlightened, because then while they sit in church at the end of July they can more fully appreciate the flag and decorations still adorning the backdrop. They can raise their hands over their heads in praise to the King of Kings, and sing with their eyes shut and their hearts open, and when fully in rapture by His Grace they can open their eyes and see nothing but red, white and blue everywhere they look – behind the band, under the screens and hanging from the walls. And in that moment, they will be glad that they do not live in Afghanistan.”
If you really want to be grateful watch these movies. None of them are what you would think they would be:
Osama (Not about bin Laden, it’s about a little girl in Afghanistan)
The Fog of War (documentary from over 20 hours of conversation with a very patriotic man)
Hotaru no haka (Grave of the fireflies) The best movie you’ll never want to see again
This blog is very helpful for me as a newcomer to understand the body politic of this church. In referencing James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him” I kept thinking about what SP said: other than the lack of appreciation and abundance of materialism and greed by some who feel they deserve it all, we have it good in the US. So if we just buck up, stop feeling sorry for ourselves and admit how wonderful America really is, we would have “stood the test”, and we will “receive the crown of life”. Gosh, all this time I was misreading the road signs. I didn’t realize that patriotism and love of country was part of the test! Wow, that really is the good news! And here I was thinking it had something to do with grace.
I’ll be signing off now. My husband and I have some movie watching to do 😉
Ah, Success!!! The reason my post was stuck waiting for moderation was because of the links I included. When I took them out it worked!
I’m just wondering who, if anyone, is moderating this blog?
Well, I’m back. I have a beef with this blog.
What in the world is this doing linked from a Christian web site: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27999
Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)
* Why I Am Not A Liberal – HUMAN EVENTS
How is “Why I am not a liberal” related to our church????
This link is an awful display of partisan liberal vs. conservative garbage. I couldn’t be more disappointed with this blog for finding this link. It has nothing at all do to with spiritual edification, and makes me wonder why a pastor like Rex would allow it.
I’ve got another question for Rex. Why yesterday did you interject so many references to the failures of leadership within the democratic party? In addition, you made direct reference to the supreme court being swayed by the liberal elite. I say you made reference because you read a quote. However, whatever you say, especially from the pulpit, are words that you believe and words that you profess.
I am aware of the need to use examples when teaching. I guess what stands out to me is that you only used examples that are “liberal” and of the democratic party. I get the sense that you are demonizing – conducting murder by character assassination.
It makes me wonder how you contrived your teaching this week. Am I simply imagining things, or did you have a specific motive for cutting down the democratic party? In addition, were you also trying to emphasize the word character in relation to the republican presidential candidate, John McCain, a man who’s name is melded with the words character and honor?
I’ve see it, too, as Kb stated above, at other churches in this area. It’s not that it doesn’t happen all over, it’s just that I didn’t think it would happen at Grace.
We seem to be turning into a church with a political motive. Sadly, that political motive seems to be married to a specific political party, and is dead-set against another.
I wish I had the courage to speak to you directly, or to email you, but I do not. I can only ask that if you feel the need to use democratic and “liberal” examples in your teaching, please be fair and include an equal amount of republican and “conservative” examples. There are plenty of both to choose from.
Emily
Emily
I agree with much of what you have posted regarding this topic. I don’t believe politics has anyplace at anytime in a church. Our time in church is about God and worshipping Him not our country whether we are proud of our nation or not (there is much to be proud of and there is much not to be proud of). I am very conservative in my political views so probably there isn’t much we’d agree on from that arena but one thing we do have in common is The Lord Jesus Christ. So whether or not we agree on the “R” or “D” matters not but that we share Jesus as Savior does.
Perhaps Rex’s references to only democrats while discussing character issues was unfortunate and perhaps the same message could have been presented without using political figures at all. As we all know (or should know) these types of actions are not limited to democrats or even politicians, I recall in the not to distant past a pastor who started and led a church that grew to over 20,000 people also was involved in similar activities as John Edwards and Eliot Spitzer. (and a number of republicans as well).
I’ve been going to Grace for almost 4 years and for the most part the message Rex gives is all about keeping the main thing the main thing. I suppose with an election around the corner and 24/7 politics in the spotlight it sort of seeps in the thinking and maybe thats why those examples where used? Its important to give the benefit of the doubt especially considering the past 4 years of messages I’ve heard at Grace so finally I don’t believe Grace is turning into a church with politcal motives. And I’m not sure how you can draw that conclusion from a message?
Jamie, here (and Emily, too, but she asked me to pen the response):
I respect Rex and like his style and warmth. His knowledge of scripture and ability to deliver the Word from his heart and mind to our hearts and minds is excellent. I think he have tremendous gifts and am glad that he is a leader in our community, and in the church.
This is not the first time I have heard political references in his sermons. I hardly remember the topics, or the verse’s he read. But what I do remember is that each time I feel like I want to stand up and walk out of church. I thought of standing in the lobby and speaking with him after the service, and in some ways I wish I had, but I decided to leave and pray for Him to help me understand. That is a much better solution than leaving and looking elsewhere for a church for me and my family.
Sadly, I don’t think I am shocked as much as I am disappointed. In the church where I was saved (in a large metropolitan city) I was exposed to all of the same messages Rex so effectively provides. I understood about Grace and Repentance, about Tithing and Leadership, about Marriage and Parenting, all from a biblical perspective. What I never once encountered at that church – and what I did feel was covertly and overtly in evidence at Grace – is a disdain for specific people, mostly based on their social and political opinions and actions.
And I have heard these same remarks of distain at other churches in this area. I give you one example. A pastor at a local church that we attended for nine months gave a sermon. He moved easily pointing out what various philosophical groups had offered over the years: “the sophists want to save us from xxx, the existentialists want to save us from yyy, etc”, and I understood his meaning, even liked the direction. Then I was struck by how he seemed to group together in the same breath certain individuals: “Hilary Clinton wants to save us from the Republicans (here much of the congregation is smiling). Al Gore wants to save us from the environment (now obvious chuckling). And Warren Buffett and Bill Gates want to save us from EVERYTHING (open laughing, knowing smiles, and tacit approval from the majority). At that very moment I could not listen or trust what came after. This was not the first time I had heard these types of comments from the pulpit. More than anything, I could not trust those who would laugh, smile and approve of such character assassination to be the teachers, mentors and Christian role models for my two young children. I wrote to that pastor, and we have reconciled as Brothers.
I suppose you or others might disregard my writing as just “getting a bit off of my chest”. Why would I post this now? Well, after leaving that church my family and I quickly found another church where we are worshiping and serving the Lord. That church is Grace. I can honestly say that while I don’t approve of what Rex said, I nevertheless have always had nothing but kind words for Rex and Grace.
GMA, when it comes down to it I suppose I, and I think I can speak for Emily here, too, feel very strongly that Rex could be much more careful of the examples he uses in his sermons. People at Grace trust Rex’s words. If he uses examples from the Democratic Party as a method of showing poor leadership, it must be ok for us to do it. If he makes jokes about the failings of local democratic politicians, it must be ok for us to do it, too. If he teaches us from the Word while using phrases like “liberal elite”, then we should teach our children the same way.
Let me throw out another quote that came into my thoughts about the Nobel Peace Prize. I’m not sure why, but one sentence in an article I read prompted me to pen this note to you: “For decades the two-term vice president has been championing environmental causes and until recently often received public scorn and derision.”
“Public scorn and derision.” That sounds like someone else we know, someone who cared about people and reached out to them even when they scorned Him. Please know that I am not equating Mr. Gore with our Lord. I know you know that. I am asking you in light of all you know now would you ridicule the man from the pulpit? And even if Mr. Gore deserved ridicule, would you have the courage to be patient, tolerant and generous with your comments of his beliefs, and of his efforts to care for others?
Finally, what led me to leave the other church was what I have seen as a propensity for many other pastors to lower themselves to the level of the congregation, and to “buddy up” to those who are their bread and butter. Yucking it up with the locals because they put the money in the basket. I apologize for these last remarks – I did not mean them at all. I simply wanted to make a point. I know what I’ve just said sounds harsh, and more than a little offensive. The Bible is full of guidance on how to speak to, and of, a brother. I was wondering though, if my harsh comments seem offensive to you, and I’m sure my entire post might be offensive to many, how do you think others might feel hearing insulting comments from the pulpit, while standing up tall with that very same Bible in one hand, and a microphone in another?
I hope you reply, and I would be glad to continue this correspondence.
Many thanks, and many blessings to you and your family.
GMA, I have been thinking a lot about what you mentioned. I do agree with you, and I retract my statement that “We seem to be turning into a church with a political motive.” Instead I must say that it seems those motives are built into the fabric of the culture at Grace, and as such are not separate from the families were are a part of, the neighborhoods we live in, and the geographic locality of our state. I simply refuse to believe for one minute that Rex is not keenly aware of each and every word he speaks.
I will also admit that over the past weeks I have not heard another such political mention from Rex. For that I am grateful.
However, yesterday a friend of my husbands told him that he had approached Rex regarding this same subject. While Rex was cordial and polite, he also made it clear that (and I am quoting my husband who quoted his friend who quoted Rex) “We are a pro-American Church.” and ”
I am concerned with that phrase: “a pro-American church.” I don’t remember being told in the intro to Grace class that this was a pro-American church. I don’t recall anything in the church website or it’s literature referring to this being a pro-American church. And I wondered what would make Rex infer that?
My husband also told me that Rex stated that “This is upstate NY, and many people here are very patriotic.”
And then it made a bit more sense. Because we live in upstate NY, which is predominantly Republican and Conservative (big R and big C), the congregation of a church here is more likely to vote that way. So in essence, Rex is not trying to sway anyone by using Democrat and Liberal phrases, he is simply preaching to the choir.
Sorry, but I’m not singing in that choir. I am not aware of any anti-American churches. If Rex is referring to the Rev. Wright escapade, that is certainly not a fair depiction of all of the workings of that church. And I am unsure what being patriotic has to do with being conservative. It’s a sad parody of the current culture that is consumed with petty differences and more interested in taking sides and demonizing others than it is in open and productive dialog.
I, and my husband, were leaning towards leaving Grace. We will not leave. After much prayer and consideration, we think the healthy far outweighs the unhealthy. However, in the past (since Reagan’s first run) we have supported a Republican ticket. For the first time this election we will not vote Republican.